Happy Birthday to you both!
No murders?
No grisly heads delivered on platters?
Guess people can have birthdays without going overboard.
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
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Preterism vs The Rapture??
by DATA-DOG inin the preterist view, all scripture is fulfilled.
when jesus said to his disciples, " this generation ", he meant it.
they would not pass away until they saw the destruction of jerusalem.
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Cold Steel
Preterism is irreconcilable with both Jewish and Christian eschatology. Although it attempts to answer some questions regarding end-time events, it ultimately raises far more. I have some friends who are preterists and communicating with them is one of the most frustrating endeavors I’ve ever experienced in discussing religion with anyone.
One problem for them is explaining a vast array of prophecies in the scriptures that haven’t come close to fulfillment. They believe Jesus returned in the first century, but to what end? If so, it accomplished nothing. It simply put mankind on a never-ending course into the future, with no Millennium, no judgment, no end to the evil that exists on the earth. In short, to assume that prophecy runs to a certain point in time and then ceases makes no sense.
According to the ancient prophets, the time would come when Jerusalem would be ravaged and Judah would be scattered to the four corners of the earth. That happened in 76 A.D. In the latter days, the Jews would be gathered to their ancestral home and rebuild their temple. In Revelation 11, John is instructed:
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
This is not the second, or Herod’s, temple. It’s a temple that would exist after the return of the Jews. Since the second temple was destroyed at the time of this writing (or so scholars tell us), we can place it in context to the latter-day coming of the beast, or Antichrist. The kingdom of the beast will place Jerusalem under siege for 3.5 years, or roughly 42 months. During that time, God will empower two prophets to defend the holy city. Again, John writes:
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
I’ve never quite understood how the Jehovah’s Witnesses can miss the nature of this prophecy. Although the scripture states specifically and unequivocally that the city will be “where...our Lord was crucified,” Watchtower writers agree that this is a spiritual reference, not actually Jerusalem. And though John explicitly explains that these two prophets are two actual people (who were symbolized by Zechariah as two olive trees and two candlesticks), the Watchtower takes it to a third tier of prophecy where the prophets themselves represent something other than literal people. And Jerusalem, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, represents a third tier of prophecy where Jerusalem, in turn, stands for something else entirely.
After about 84 hours, the apostle writes, something remarkable will happen:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake....
The earthquake, of course, is caused by Jesus, who is descending from heaven to the Mount of Olives. Here we pick up from Zechariah 14, where the Jerusalem is under siege and is on the verge of toppling. Then the Lord enters the fray:
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Notice how the one descending is specifically referred to as “the Lord.” This is the Second Coming of Christ, and Christ is specifically referred to as “Jehovah” in the NWT:
Jehovah will go out and war against those nations as when he fights in the day of a battle. In that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in half, from east to west, forming a very great valley; and half of the mountain will move to the north, and half of it to the south.You will flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains will extend all the way to A′zel. You will have to flee, just as you fled because of the earthquake in the days of King Uz·zi′ah of Judah. And Jehovah my God will come, and all the holy ones will be with him.
The situation is the same mentioned by John. Jerusalem will suffer a devastating attack. After 3.5 years, the enemy will break through and kill the two prophets. Afterwards, when the prophets resurrect, there will be a horrendous earthquake, and the prophets will ascend to meet the returning Jehovah, or Christ. It all fits like a wonderful puzzle, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses completely obfuscate matters by telling their people it’s all spiritual and invisible. The prophets represent this and Jerusalem represents that, and nothing is what it appears.
The same is true for the preterists. Their “fulfilled eschatology” cannot explain the fulfillment of the above prophecies (because they haven’t happened yet). Bible students can make up their own minds. If they want to know exactly what will happen in this last great battle before the Millennium, check out Ezekiel 38 - 39 .
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Pecking Order in the Millennium
by Cold Steel inokay, the smoke has cleared.
everyone's dead who had it coming and the remainder find that their bodies have been changed.
no more disease, no more aging, no more human weaknesses and the weather is perfect.
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Cold Steel
Okay, the smoke has cleared. Everyone's dead who had it coming and the remainder find that their bodies have been changed. No more disease, no more aging, no more human weaknesses and the weather is perfect. What next? Will everyone's homes be destroyed, will the skyscrapers in New York, Chicago, Tokyo and other nations be razed to the ground? Or can we move into the house two doors down -- the one that was just remodeled or renovated?
But who will mankind now look up to as leaders? Will the anointed class be handing out edicts from Heaven or will members of the Governing Body appear in white robes and appoint leaders? In other words, who will be in charge? On another post, someone said there would still be weekly meetings, and there may still be a need for missionary work.
Have there been any articles written about what to expect?
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RANDOM THOUGHTS . . .
by Terry inrandom thought #1:.
in primitive times humans got their ideas from observing cause and effect.. if somebody got injured with great loss of blood they would die.
even the dullest thinker would associate blood with life itself.. random thought #2. when you watch somebody at their deathbed event the cessation of breathing is the signal of death itself.. a primitive observer would connect the exhalation (death-rattle) with the going-out-of-life.. we get the word respiration (breathing) and the word spirit connected to the thought of an intangible soul.. in other words, something (spirit, soul, breath) leaving the body and going off and away at the point of death originated belief in the soul.. a big deal is attached to a simple thing in and of itself no big deal.. random thought #3. a lot of bogus ideas come from mixing things together which do not belong together.
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Cold Steel
We get the word reSPIRation (breathing) and the word SPIRit connected to the thought of an intangible soul. In other words, something (spirit, soul, breath) leaving the body and going off and away at the point of death ORIGINATED belief in the soul.
The Hebrew and Greek words for "spirit" and "breath" are the same, but causitive relationships can be difficult to prove. If one believes in a revealed religion, the concept of death would have been understood from the beginning. But even as a child, I saw the corpses of humans, birds and animals, and it was clear that there was something missing. It was there when it was alive, and gone when it was dead. Bodies, to me, have never looked real. The animating force within them wasn't just the air they breathed in and exhaled; it was something more. And despite what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach, the concept of a human spirit was far more than a Greek fable. When King Saul couldn't get a revelation regarding what turned out to be his last battle, he turned to a witch who conjured up what he believed was Samuel's spirit. The scripture doesn't say the vision was or wasn't Samuel, but that's not the point. The point is that this Israelite king believed that Samuel had a spirit which could be consulted.
It's equally as clear that the first century Christians believed not only that man has a spirit that survives death, but that the spirit comes from God and had a prior existence. Talk about causitive effects! If God was just and equitable, why wouldn't all people be born equal? Why are some smarter than others? Why do some excel in mathematics, while others are gifted in other areas? Why the difference in intelligence? Why are some people born bad? Some children born into good homes are just bad from the beginning, torturing small animals and even killing adults, while others are born just the opposite? Even if there is no God, even animals seem to understand death. Why not man?
There's also the difference between good and evil. It has nothing to do with survival, yet man seems to have a fairly good understanding of which is which. If anything denotes there is a God, it's this ingrained concept of good and evil, of beauty in music and art, and nobility. Even though many of us don't live up to the high standards we recognize, we seem to admire the people who have the traits of honesty, integrity, virtue, nobility and godliness.
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How Long Will ARMAGEDDON Last?
by Cold Steel inaccording to the jw doctrine, can armageddon happen any day now?
is it possible that it could happen tomorrow?.
will it last minutes, hours, days?
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Cold Steel
Thanks for your comments, AbleBodied. From the Jehovah’s Witness point of view, Armageddon is a when, not a where. For most other Christians, however, it’s a where and a when. When it’s a place, it’s called simply Armageddon; when it’s a when, it’s called the Battle of Armageddon. And since, like all battles, there will be casualties on both sides, it’s not improper to ask when all these things will be? Or when will this great battle take place?
But with Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’m never sure what their beliefs are on such matters. They make it sound like some day in the very near future, a huge storm will gather. Then, suddenly, demons and angels will come whoopin’ out of the sky and tearin’ into each other. Then, as the “true Christians” watch in horror, or glee, they’ll see angels dragging out their Catholic and Protestant neighbors and settin’ them on fire. The clouds then roll in thick and black, and lightning crashes in the heavens. Suddenly, like a thief in the night, the clouds part and Jesus descends whilst all the Jehovah’s Witnesses rise to meet him in the air.
In other words, it could come any moment.
Most other Christians have an eschatology that begins with Judah gathering to the lands of its inheritance and becoming a nation. After that, a kingdom will rise out of other kingdoms and that it will be a kingdom that once ruled the world, was disestablished and then reestablished. John saw the kingdom as a beast that would seek to overthrow God and utter great blasphemies. Bolstering him will be a “false prophet” who, like the beast, will receive his power from Satan. But it’s the false prophet who will wow the nations and people of the world with miracles such as calling down fire, and he will defer in all things to the beast.
Like other prophetic beasts, these will be real flesh and blood men, just as Alexander the Great was depicted before his coming as a beast revealed to the prophet Daniel. This beast, however, will come down on Jerusalem and occupy the third temple. He may even help build it. After a period of time, however, he will viciously turn on the Jews and begin slaughtering them. Zechariah points to the nations “round about” Jerusalem that will be Israel’s primary enemies, which is why I think the beast and false prophet will be Muslims. Two prophets of God will stand up against the beast and the power of Satan and the power of God will create a stalemate. But after three and a half years, the power of the beast will win out and the two prophets will be slain, their dead bodies left in the streets while a celebration takes place. But after three and a half days, these two prophets will miraculously stand upon their feet and ascend into heaven in the sight of the beast and his armies. Then all will hear a voice and a shout, and then every eye shall see the Messiah coming in the clouds and descending towards the Mount of Olives.
The remaining Jews will instantly know it’s their Messiah, and when the mountain is ripped in two by a horrendous earthquake they will flee into the newly created valley to meet him. But as they approach him, according to Zechariah, the Jews will say to him, “Where did you get these wounds?” (referring to the marks in his hands and feet). Then the Messiah will answer, “These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends.” Then it will dawn on them that their Messiah was Jesus, whom their fathers turned over to the Romans. Then they begin lamentations throughout the land. The Messiah will at that time be taken to the East Gate of the city and will be heralded into the temple. The East Gate will then be resealed and never opened again.
What about the beast and his minions? All but a sixth of them will be incinerated at the Lord’s coming. And thus the great Battle of Armageddon will be over.
In prophecy, the events are structured. If, for example, you live to see the two prophets killed, you will know when Jesus will come.
Thus, Armageddon is seen differently by first century Christians and modern day Jehovah’s Witnesses. The latter see it as a when. So my question was, according to those beliefs, how long do most Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Battle of Armageddon will be?
(BTW, in your video, you made a number of errors in my view. First, it’s a stretch to believe that the JWs are directing people to Christ in Bethel. In other words, they don’t fulfill those warnings because those warnings are literal. The GB can claim to speak for God, but that’s not the same as saying that God is actually present at Bethel. Speaking for God isn’t the same as being God, as prophets have spoken for God for years. Also, when Satan told Adam and Eve that they would become as God, knowing good from evil, wasn’t a lie; the lie was that they wouldn’t die. Remember, later the [eloheim] said, Man has become as one of us, knowing good from evil. Without partaking of the forbidden fruit, man never would have become mortal. And if he didn’t become mortal, he could not have been redeemed, and if he could not have been redeemed, he never could have been achieved his potential of becoming like Christ in power and glory, inheriting all that the Father has. So arguably Satan’s temptation inadvertantly fulfilled the Lord’s plan; otherwise, why did the Father put the forbidden fruit within easy reach in a place where Satan had all the time in the world? Bottom line, the GB are at worst false prophets. They aren’t setting themselves up in God’s temple, proclaiming that they are God.)
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Who wants to live forever?
by Doug Mason inwhat will living be like after 5 billion years?.
doug.
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Cold Steel
It depends on one's potential. The scriptures indicate there are no practical limits to our progression. If one is stuck in a crummy garden, horrors! But if one has the ability to change one's body to energy and traverse billions of light years with a thought, and if one is in a state of eternal happiness and is engaged in worthwhile and productive activities, who knows? God is from eternity to eternity, yet he manages to remain engaged in creating worlds and populating them, not to mention running the Universe.
We have nothing useful to compare an eternal existence with. It could be a hoot!
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How Long Will ARMAGEDDON Last?
by Cold Steel inaccording to the jw doctrine, can armageddon happen any day now?
is it possible that it could happen tomorrow?.
will it last minutes, hours, days?
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Cold Steel
Very interesting take.
When the elders speak of Armageddon being right around the corner, do they mean that all these things will suddenly escalate? Many JWs have given me the impression that Armageddon can happen at any time.
Regarding biblical prophecy, prophecy scholar Joel Richardson notes:
We must always remember that the Bible is thoroughly Jerusalem-centric. It is not America-centric, nor is it Western-centric. In the biblical view of things, Jerusalem is the center of the earth. This point cannot be underscored enough.
The Islamic Antichrist: The Shocking Truth about the Real Nature of the Beast (p. 95)But what of the numerous scriptures that speak of "all nations" of the earth? Are these to be taken literally, especially in light of the above? It appears the JWs have shifted things to suit their point of view. Richardson cites the following scriptures:
...Do 'All Nations' Mean All Nations?...
I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. (Zechariah 12:2–3)
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it. (Zechariah 14:2)
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel. (Joel 3:2)
The beast…was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every...nation. (Revelation 13:7)
The JWs (and many other Christian sects) take this at face value. But as Richardson explains:
Since these verses use the word “all” and specifically the phrase “all the nations of the earth” when speaking of the attack against Jerusalem at the battle of Armageddon, then surely it has already been determined that every last nation will fall to the Antichrist’s empire and support him in this battle. I can fully understand how many would arrive at this conclusion.
There are at least two problems with this interpretation, however. First, other verses in the Bible use this very same type of language, yet clearly do not speak of every single last nation in the world. These verses, as well as the previous ones, all employ a Hebrew grammatical construct—an exaggeration of sorts or an emphatic type of statement—in order to convey their point. Grammarians call this construct hyperbole. It is a statement like, “Everyone loves ice cream!”
This type of language is actually found quite frequently in the Bible. For instance, Daniel the Prophet, speaking to King Belshazzar, said this:
O king, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor. Because of the high position he gave him, all the peoples and nations and men of every language dreaded and feared him. (Daniel 5:18–19, emphasis mine)
So I ask you this question: Did every single nation on earth fear Nebuchadnezzar? Or did only those nations that had heard of Nebuchadnezzar dread him? Was Daniel speaking of every single last nation of the earth? Or only those nations that were in close enough proximity to Babylon to be affected by it?
In other words, the beast of Revelation is most likely not the ruler of the entire world, but the part of the world that is being spoken of at the time. One wonders where one single power can consolidate all the governments of the earth. I think sometimes things are taken too literally, and the verse above is only one. Daniel and other writers, including John, speak of all nations being subject to this and that power, but how could he have known about Brazil or Mexico...or Bethel for that matter?
Given everything that must happen before Armageddon, it does not appear it can happen anytime soon from our point of view. Most of the early Watchtowers seemed to place the end of this "wicked system" years ago, even when there were no signs up the road.
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Cold Steel
So the Jonadab class is not the "spirit" resurrection crowd, but is the physical resurrection group that will live on Paradise Earth?
First I've heard of 'em.
What's the difference between them and the general membership? Are there dues?
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How Long Will ARMAGEDDON Last?
by Cold Steel inaccording to the jw doctrine, can armageddon happen any day now?
is it possible that it could happen tomorrow?.
will it last minutes, hours, days?
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Cold Steel
According to the JW doctrine, can Armageddon happen any day now? Is it possible that it could happen tomorrow?
And when it happens, exactly, how will it come about? Will it last minutes, hours, days? Isn't the United Nations supposed to declare war against the WTBTS? If so what will be the catalyst be that causes the U.N. to suddenly abandon issues like Iran acquiring nuclear weapons, the terrorist threat and Korea and suddenly go after a New York publishing company that prints religious materials?
When this great conflagration hits, how long is it expected to last? And what effect did 9/11 have on Armageddon expectations? Did field service shoot up noticably afterwards? Did many "apostates" come running back to the Truth? For those of you who were active back then, did you experience any expectations?
Finally, what is the attitude of most JWs regarding the destruction of non-JWs? Do you think many JWs look forward to it with a certain amount of glee? (In Islamic eschatology, Heaven is multi-tiered, providing faithful Muslims with a bird's eye view of those suffering in Hell. They will be able to enjoy not only seeing people writhing in agony, but hear their cries of pain.) In JW theology, Jews, Muslims, non-JWs, murderers, rapists and especially Catholics will all be destroyed. I'm more interested in the "glee" factor. Do most JWs have a tendency towards compassion regarding those who will be destroyed, or will it be a good-bye and good riddance thing?
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We are in God's "image" but God's morality is repugnant
by yadda yadda 2 inthe bible says in genesis that god made human beings in his "image".. this means that christians believe human beings were made with certain attributes that they share with god.
attributes such as intelligence, creativity, an appreciation of beauty, and sharing a similar set of cardinal moral and spiritual values around love, justice, mercy, etc.. this linked article explains it from a christian perspective more fully.http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/deeper-walk/features/23549-qmade-in-the-image-of-godq.
and yet....we find in the old testament that god performs or endorses the most morally repugnant acts, such as ethnic cleansing, killing infants and children, causing famines and plagues, drowning the entire human population except eight persons, etc, etc - all actions that any reasonable and objectively sane person naturally finds morally incomprehensible, disgusting, evil.. this article here outlines some of the actions described in the ot that any normal, sane person would naturally find morally abhorrent:http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/raymond_bradley/moral.html.
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Cold Steel
AND YET....we find in the Old Testament that God performs or endorses the most morally repugnant acts, such as ethnic cleansing, killing infants and children, causing famines and plagues, drowning the entire human population except eight persons, etc, etc - all actions that any reasonable and objectively sane person naturally finds morally incomprehensible, disgusting, evil.
Has it occurred to you that you might not be aware of all the angles? I’m not saying this in a negative way, but if there is a God, then he knows all things and is, in fact, incapable of doing evil, being perfect, just, compassionate and the author of our salvation.
God, physically, is in the shape of a man. We are his children and we look like him. How do we know this? John says that Jesus is in the “express image” of the Father. The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Yahweh is the Father; however, the early Christians believed that Jesus was, and is, Yahweh. When he was resurrected, he had a physical, glorified body of flesh and bone. He wasn’t a spirit and took great pains to point that out to the apostles, going so far as to eat fish and drink wine. But the scriptures state that Adam was in the image and likeness of God, and that Seth was in the image and likeness of Adam.
As to God’s characteristics, he has the benefit of knowing all things. Before the earth was formed, he knew that Adam and Eve would fall. And when the Israelites were sojourning in the wilderness, the Lord fully knew the wickedness of the Canaanites. These guys that the Lord ordered the Israelites to destroy were not just settlers in the land; they were worshipers of Molech. They engaged in the most debauched sexual passages and caused their children to pass through the fires of Molech. Thus, to the beating of loud drums, they placed infants into the fires to be sacrificed alive. And the thing is, the Lord never destroyed a people without first warning them.
The Lord never acted in a capricious or and unjust way because he’s perfect and he knows all things from the beginning. I think you’re standing in judgment of God either because you don’t believe in him or because you don’t understand all the inputs that he knows of. In an apocryphal book, the Lord shows Enoch the coming flood and at first Enoch is horrified. But when the Lord showed him the wickedness they were involved in, Enoch changed his mind because he then saw things from the Lord’s vantage. And finally, the Lord views death quite differently than we do. The Watchtower crowd believes that death is a cessation of existence; however, I don’t believe this is the case. If both men and animals have spirits, then death is only a change of scenery.
In short, you see things from a very limited, superficial vantage point. The Lord sees everything from the beginning.